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International Women's Day: Kidscan Researchers

March 8th is International Women’s Day and we are celebrating achievements made by some of the women funded by Kidscan, to research new treatments for children’s cancer.

We want to help raise awareness of not only their work, but also the role they play in reinforcing the idea that a career in science is attainable to all. By encouraging inclusivity and diversity in scientific research, and striving for excellence at all times, this can benefit us all in the fight against cancer.

We spoke to three women scientific researchers at Salford University, who receive funding from Kidscan for their work discovering new anti-cancer drugs and ways of delivering these drugs directly to the cancer cells. This study may improve the outcome for children suffering with Neuroblastoma, a type of cancer that affects about 10% of children and is responsible for 15% of childhood related deaths. Their research is focused on isolating and identifying anticancer drugs from a mould called Aspergillus fumigatus. To reduce the toxicity and assist in the delivery of these drugs, they’re also using cutting edge chemistry techniques to encase these mould derived chemotherapies.

Dr Rosa Arrigo, Lecturer in Inorganic Chemistry and Dr Sara Namvar, Lecturer in Biomedical Science are collaborating to run this current project. Coming from different scientific fields and backgrounds, theirs’ is a positive example of how women in science are making a difference in their own careers, and in supporting others.

K: Was there a certain person or event that inspired you to become a scientist?
Sara: I always wanted to do medicine but as a plan B, some academics came to my college talking about neuroscience and that’s what ended up happening for me. When you go to study a science undergraduate degree, you need relevant experiences in addition to your degree that really get you on track. I had the opportunity to do a placement and then the same lab offered me a PhD. So it was being in that research environment quite early on, that made me realise that this is where I needed to be.

Rosa: I was fascinated by science, since probably high school in Italy, already then it was something that I loved to do, I was interested in. I also had a strong drive that I wanted to do something helpful for society. I did my Master degree in a very active research group . And this was really ideal for me as I felt part of a community. This feeling of belonging and sharing an important cause, and any initiative that can endorse that is very important. A leap I also made was to go around Europe to experience different research laboratories. I think that these kinds of initiatives are important, including those encouraging training of women in STEM .

Women need to be there and need to encourage younger women to do that. We might sometime face unconscious bias that can become tiring at some point; one might as well think to give up because it takes a lot of energy. For me the drive was stronger. My second Master supervisor was a woman and she actually very encouraging towards female students; I was in a group with many girls around.

K: Are there any particular people or organisations that helped you on your way up establishing your career?
Rosa: I think it is very helpful to talk with your peers about science, even maintain a good collaboration. I still collaborate with my mentors. Naturally one must have a vision on how to develop a career and put a lot of energy in it. But it is really from the psychological perspective, it’s very important to have a conversation with your peers, with your supervisor with the previous supervisor. And that has been and is being very helpful.

Sara: There was a point in my undergraduate degree (at the University of Manchester) where I was a lost sheep and they had a scheme for giving people a summer placement, that was a real turning point for me. You have to work hard but equally sometimes you need to give students the opportunity to see beyond their degree, to have that context, and that can be like the flick of a switch. So a student that might not be performing very well, but they get tasked with a summer in a lab, that can suddenly flick this particular switch and that makes them really motivated. For me, it was that opportunity, coupled with really nice people that I still keep in touch with to this day, who are still my mentors and guides. The same person who, gave me that summer placement was the person that gave me a reference to come to Salford just two years ago.
Plus involvement in industry, having done three years at AstraZeneca, that was instrumental for me and having a supervisor there who, again, was a really good person. So I think it’s having some opportunities coupled with hard work, and maintaining those relationships with the people that inspired you, coached you. And I don’t think necessarily gender comes in there, if I’m honest. I have probably had more male role models and people that have helped me, and that wasn’t intentional, and equally I’ve had two wonderful female bosses and role models / colleagues and friends that, again, have been massively instrumental in my career.

K: For your current Kidscan funded project, you are collaborating on that. How did that working relationship come about?
Sara: A little while before the PhD I managed to secure a Kidscan placement and I have to say thank you for that, because that was the first little piece of funding, I had to get the lab up and running. That was massively instrumental and then Rosa, maybe you can say the next bit of the story, Rosa then contacted me…

Rosa: I had an idea that I wanted to explore, I’m an inorganic chemist, and our project is really multidisciplinary. I was looking for someone who was developing dna anti-cancer drugs and to develop this nanotechnology and then I met Sara, obviously, there was a nice interaction and then I asked her, would you like to do this adventure?

Sara: Yes, it was just the right place at the right time. Our ideas came together quite nicely and the project, I think is working well.

K: I love that idea that you’re both bringing different skills, different experiences, to one project. How would you describe the way you work?
Rosa: It’s very interesting and stimulating, because we also learn different aspects of the project and we share viewpoints It´s always about combining these two things together. I think, this is the beauty of project: we want to bring new knowledge across disciplines, and this can only be achieved via interaction, sharing ideas, knowledge exchange and communication.

Sara: I totally agree. I think, for me, the project just wouldn’t be feasible if it wasn’t for the fact that I’m working with somebody from a totally different discipline, and I think it’s really good for the students as well. Because they are the next generation of scientists, they are going forward into the world with this interdisciplinary skill set, which I think increasingly is going to be the way scientists need to be able to work.

K: Particularly in the fight against cancer, do you think different interdisciplinary skills and different ways of working are particularly important?
Rosa: I think it is particularly important to explore different strategies in the fight against the cancer in a time frame which is sensible. And this is what we are trying to do, we are trying to bring on the table different basic knowledges to combine together to attain more effective cures, but also the less damaging. This is also a very important aspect.

K: You’re both teaching academics, you’re working very hands on with the next generation. Are you particularly looking to help women or certain groups of students get their voices and their ideas heard?
Rosa: Right, okay, so this is a very political question. I agree with the fact that we need to aim for excellence and this is a concept beyond genders, right? My previous supervisor, she was supportive of female students and I have to say, I tend to do the same. But I also had male role models such as my PhD , supervisor., He was supportive regardless of gender, but because I was motivated and interested. I feel I can safely say this this is what one should be looking for.

But there is one other thing to mention, female candidates perform differently [in interviews]. So, the point is that how do we evaluate excellence? I figured very often male candidates during interviews, are more optimistic :‘Yes, I can do it’, so these people give a good impression. In contrast girls are less incisive in their answers, unsure about their ability. One cannot generalize, of course, but in such a scenario, a more critical person is also potentially a good scientist., and being inquisitive, isn’t this also a pathway to excellence?

So now, when I go back and think about excellence I think about these girls, not all, but they interview differently and I’m excluding them, because they appear unsecure, uncertain. I think women might understand this issue better and should be on panels to enable more opportunities to female students to get training and to be excellent. And a political and easier way of doing that is by dedicating positions for female candidates. This is my personal viewpoint, okay, I am interested in merit, but I also know what that actually chasing a job means in this world that judges and expect you performing in a certain way and at a certain speed, which does not necessarily correlate with excellence. So, this is why I am particularly supportive of female students by encouraging them that they have to speak up and insist, ask, let their voice be heard.

I had children early, I was always questioning myself; ‘Can I take this opportunity, this commitment? Can I take this responsibility?’ And I was often laid back by this. I now know I was wrong back then; I should have taken more responsibilities earlier. I know that other women have the same feeling too, so now I share my view and experience with my student as a way of encouraging them.

K: And, Sara, you are also a student engagement officer?
Sara: I’m the biomedicine student engagement lead and in that capacity, we develop lots of different things at Salford including The Biomed Soc, a student led society where students do lots of social activities, but also build communication skills and confidence. We ran a public speaking competition for students and we’ve got a student led magazine called Bioscientist, getting those verbal and written communication skills out. So, the primary focus is to develop employability through career planning, and communication skills.

K: How important do you feel that future generations of scientists get to see and hear about women in science?
Sara: Irrespective of gender, the background that the student comes from or any other variable that you can think of, we are giving students the information and the opportunity to really build their CV and get them get themselves ready for careers. And I think it’s absolutely essential that students have role models of various descriptions, that could be different ethnic backgrounds, it can be different genders. But probably before they even get to university, they need to see those role models when they’re in primary school, when those really strong preconceptions are beginning to form and before they make those key decisions around their GCSEs, so they need those role models really early on.

Rosa: I think it’s important to actually remove unconscious bias that is existing on both sides. And these role models will really break down that belief that a girl cannot do science. Because it’s still something only the toughest actually challenge, the others tend to not so it’s really important to break this unconscious bias.

K: International Women’s Day, what are your hopes for the future?
Rosa: I think ultimately, it’s about enabling opportunities regardless of gender, at the same career level. In undergrads there is not so much of a gender gap. It becomes really significant when you go up the career ladder, into more managerial positions. We need to allow the right person to go there, regardless of their gender and hopefully with equal representation. To achieve this goal all these initiatives are important because in the end of the day it’s a difficult path.

Recently I read about Maria Goeppert Mayer who worked just for the pleasure of doing science without being paid. I thought It was horrible to accept that something like that happened. Nowadays we are in a better place but I think we can still do more. A diverse environment is more stimulating and I say this for my own experience. Women are really good at managing their households, so why shouldn’t they go outside and do more?

There is always unconscious bias. We have it when we judge ourselves so we certainly have when we observe others so it’s important to be aware of that to enable equal opportunity. There are cases of women managing extremely successfully their career, but these are few cases but for the vast majority of women probably had to work much harder to get where they are.

Another important member of the team working on this research project is second year PhD student Izuchika Nduka.

K: Is there a person or event that inspired you to become a scientist?
Yes, so two things actually, person and an event. My mom is actually one of the greatest influences in my life.
I’m from Nigeria, and back home, my mom was one of the renowned scientists in her field. I grew up seeing her be this great medical parasitologist. We had stories of how she got her PhD at the age of 27 and we’re like, ‘oh wow, okay, can we do this?’ So yes, at a young age, I felt like I wanted to be my mom. And then in the second year of my undergrad degree, I lost an Auntie to cancer, lymphoma specifically. She was an amazing person. So that got me to thinking about how I can help, how I can contribute. I think those two things propelled me onto the journey to research, where I am currently.

K: Why did you pursue scientific research?
I’m a trained pharmacist, I practised pharmacy for give or take five years. While practising, one of the things that really struck me was, I mean, we have all these medications, we have all these drugs, but how did they come to being, you know? It’s okay to just properly prescribe, recommend or market certain medications, but what exactly goes into the process of making this particular regimen? So, I really did want to explore that area. And knowing research is pretty much everything; having to sit down, try to break things down to the minute details to understand what was going on. So that aspect was something that I actually did think I would want to explore, I would want to contribute to it.

K: Where you are currently in your career, are there any particular people or organisations that have helped you?
Yes, during my undergrad course, my lecturers were actually very instrumental in where I’m at today. I don’t know what they saw, (laughs) but they encouraged me to pursue research. I do remember, it was in my final year and my supervisor said: “Oh, you didn’t finish your project, because you didn’t really have the time to. So, when you do come back for a Masters, you can finish it.” Like you didn’t even ask me if I wanted to do a Masters you just said, so that was it. Then when I was practising pharmacy, one of my lecturers called me up: “I wanted to find out if you’re okay, so yeah, I do understand you are practicing now and everything, but how about going back into research and all of that?”

I’m like, okay, no worries, I’ll start applying, putting applications in. So, every now and again, they do reach out to find out how it’s going, to ask how is your journey progressing. They have been great and my current supervisors, Drs Rosa and Sara, they have been amazing in the sense that they’re very encouraging. They have all these brilliant ideas and they push me to be the best that I can be. I guess I just say, okay, there is more to this, so I just have to keep doing it. And of course, my family, they’ve been a great support at every step through my journey and told me, ‘okay, you’re good at this, you can keep doing this’.
One of the things that made it possible for me to get here is I did get a scholarship from the Alan Ferguson Foundation to do my master’s here in the UK at Aston University. Getting that opportunity made it possible for me to get here, and then seeing the opportunity from Kidscan to be part of this process.

K: Do you feel you have a part to play in handing that ladder down to others, including women, on their way up?
Yeah, definitely. In my spare time once a week I mentor/ tutor a year 12 biology student, just as a volunteer effort just to make sure that she does know that it’s possible. I remember the first session we had and I said I’m a second year PhD student and she was like, ‘oh, wow!’ I’m like, yeah, it’s possible, you can do it. So in that regard, yes, it’s something that is important to me. I want more people to have the opportunity to believe that it’s possible to be a woman and still be able to aspire to great things, to greatness, and know that it’s possible to actually get there.

Also, some junior colleagues from back home who want to understand how the process works, how can I get into this, what opportunities are out there? I do send them whatever links I can get my hands on. Very recently, a friend of mine just came into the country to do her Master’s, and she was like, it’s because of you, you know, you did push me to do this. I’m like, yes, you need to do it. So yeah, in my own true way I tried to do as much as I can and hopefully, we can reach out to more people out there. More women I mean, I’m particularly interested in women. I know you did say more people but yeah, more women out there to, pursue their dreams and push for what they’re passionate about.

K: How important do you feel it is that future generations of scientists get to see and hear about women who are pursuing science as their career?
Yeah, it is very important, very important. I think, for me, I was lucky in the sense that I grew up in a family where women are already aspiring to do great things. But I do understand that for a lot of women out there, this is not their reality, this is not what they are used to. So, I think is important for us to keep hammering on about the fact that it is needed, it is necessary for women to get out there, too. I mean, no matter what means we have to use to do it. I love the fact that you’re doing a blog post that is going to be focused on women, I totally do love that. More efforts like that and events, just to push the message so that women know that okay, this is possible, this can be achieved, this can be done.

K: Personally, and also in terms of the bigger ‘women in science’ picture, what are your hopes for the future?
I want a situation where you walk into a room full of hundreds of people and you don’t just pick out two or three women in the room, you navigate over to them and you find yourself and you’re like, oh, wow, we are here. I want a situation where you can walk into that room and we are not the outliers. We are the norm. It’s okay to walk into a room and see other women. It’s perfectly normal. So, for me that will be great, it will be an awesome thing.

Personally, I’m in a good place, I’m in a good spot. I’m doing something that I really do hope will be very impactful by the end of this journey. And any way that I can contribute to the betterment of humanity at large, I’d really love that. That would be fulfilling to me. So yeah, I’ll just keep doing what I have to do, keep seeing how I can inspire others so that tomorrow they can also be in the room and not feel like “okay, am I out of place here? Are there other women here? Yes. Okay, this is amazing” So yeah, that will be for me.

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